what is happening with special dungon

Re: what is happening with special dungon

Postby Bigbadjohn » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:46 pm

Benjamin - I feel that you are being a bit patronising there...if you are going to do so at least back up the assertion with a cogent argument.

Beating the game using horsemen doesn't invalidate the point made that the dragon queens have effectively made equivalent Panzers much better than Horsemen in almost every way. I had got bored with doing CH7/8 but used the dragon queens and a mix of Panzers + 7*/6* dragons to breeze through the chapters with revives only needed on the 3 obvious points - I reckon I would have needed a lot more revives with Horsemen.

I used to agree that the Horseman could give greater gross damage throughput and took the time to measure it over 500+ activations but as the advantage was around 65% the advent of the dragon queens effectively nullifies the only real edge that the Horsemen possessed!

As for raids.....

In the last GW my post panzer alts found they lagged way behind my pre-Panzer alts when I ran panzer teams vs. Horseman teams whereas in the previous raids there was close to parity between the two methods.

In your mono-white example an equivalent Panzer will still beat Faith especially as Faith will reduce HP so survivability and the unreliability of the Horsemen make using them against Horsemen flaky - especially when you CAN use a strong coloured Panzer/Shooter in those whereas not with Horsemen!
(Have you tested that the damage is amplified as you do know we are not actually spinning reels in the game?)

I was a bit of a fan of Horsemen prior to the new GW rewards but PM seem to have decided to weaken Horsemen for some unknown reason :cry:
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Re: what is happening with special dungon

Postby Benjamin » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:53 pm

No, I don't mean to be patronizing, sorry if I came off that way. I just feel it's insulting or at least inappropriate to suggest horsemen are nothing more than collector cards, especially towards the many out there that rely on them.

I wasn't attempting to invalidate any point, I simply stated that horsemen made it possible to finish Chapter 7 and 8 with a "reasonable" amount of revives.

I would have needed a lot more revives with Horsemen.
Do you have proof, have you tested this belief? Although you maybe correct this doesn't negate the fact that using horsemen in late stages is a viable strategy.

I used to agree that the Horseman could give greater gross damage throughput and took the time to measure it over 500+ activations but as the advantage was around 65% the advent of the dragon queens effectively nullifies the only real edge that the Horsemen possessed!

There are other advantages horsemen possess other than damage throughput. Here are some,
*Evolvable to 8* thus giving better base stats
*Good possibility of only dealing damage to one monster, this has advantages from time to time
*Two rounds of special ability instead of one, this can be beneficial from time to time
*Maps that not elements are available will see an increase in other elements, this increase will amplify horsemen ability,

As for raids,
I'm talking about soloing raid bosses , If you use Panzer's you will know your limits of what level raid boss you'll be able to take down, with horsemen you will at least have the possibility of taking down a higher level RB than with panzer, I do realize this involves luck.

(Have you tested that the damage is amplified as you do know we are not actually spinning reels in the game?) In levels where not all elements appear? Just by running through these levels it becomes quite obvious that the lack of a specific element means the other available elements will show up more frequently. Horsemen rely on reel spins so it's clear they perform better in these special levels. I do not know how much of an increase this would imply, I can probably calculate it, but obviously there are many variables.

I do agree that new dragon queens have made Panzers + 8* dragons superior than pretty much all other card decks, I believe horsemen still have their place!
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Re: what is happening with special dungon

Postby Bigbadjohn » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:57 pm

As for evidence - as I stated with a combination of Panzers/Dragons I blitzed 7/8 except for the 3 places where (except for an exceptional fluke with a horseman) you have to just take a few revives - because I had exact knowledge of when I could deal damage and how much it was easier to maintain tempo - the big thing was the extra 52.5% HP and damage output from the dragons now means that I can't find a way to justify using Horsemen - unless I have certainty of being perpetually lucky.

Could I have saved revives with horsemen - possibly if I'd had lottery winner's luck - I am aware of the damage output range and probability thereof of using horsemen and it just didn't stack up - most of Chapter 7 needs zero revives with my Dragon squad - I did at times need the extra HP to survive. This is just a game of numbers and PM have pushed the balance back towards panzers/dragons.

I do have one team using a Horseman - mono-green Warrior Queen (*4)+ Horseman + health refresh for grinding Charybdis.

As to the advantages listed - they are generally based on a premise of "IF the spins are good then Horsemen rock" - well if you have died because the stupid horseman failed to even kill a fairly limp target then the whole premise falls apart.

As for raid bosses - I can now field a team of 7* Charybdis - it wasn't because I gambled with Horsemen - I actually gambled with Panzers & Dragons - yes you have to take chances and make tactical decisions as to fight tempo.
I like the mono green tactic but it is tedious - with Dragons I feel fairly confident of doing around 2m each time up to mid-50's and it is fast...

Have you tested the damage frequency in horseman fights - I may if I get bored and the horsemen are still around - the boost may be smaller than you think...suspect the Devs don't know either!

The other big downside of Horsemen is that without mono deck they fail - Dragons have now got that restriction lifted which just reinforces their dominance.
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Re: what is happening with special dungon

Postby Benjamin » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:44 pm

Well now I do agree because of dragon queens the tide has even shifted more towards dragon/panzer,

I will only contest the missing element levels, I do believe horsemen are superior with the increased element probability.

I wasnt wanting to turn this into a debate about whether a equally skilled panzer is better than a horsemen but you make a compelling argumet especially with the dragon queens,

Who knows maybe they'll make a card that'll further enhance horsemen,

Thanks for some good deck advice
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